What's the deal with the transmission?

[Cellar Yeti]

Is the Madass transmission auto or manual? I can't seem to get a straight answer. It's one of my sticking points on deciding what scooter to go with. As well, lack of gas gauge is a bummer.

[Greg]

The 125 is a 4 speed manual. The 50cc comes in automatic and manual, though the automatic will probably be discontinued due to lack of sales. Manual is a lot more fun.

[Cellar Yeti]

I'd be happier with a twist n' go automatic. Is it possible to buy a 50 and swap in a 125 while retaining the automatic transmission?

[Greg]

I don't know if that can be done or not. If a manual transmission is causing you some trepidation, let me reassure you that a manual transmission on a scooter or motorcycle does not have the steep learning curve that it does on a car. With a car you have to time the release of the clutch and pressure on the gas pedal just right. On a bike this is not the case. Also, with a car you never want to "ride the clutch", but on a bike, riding the clutch in certain instances is rather useful and won't harm the bike.

[Peirspeed]

I'd be happier with a twist n' go automatic. Is it possible to buy a 50 and swap in a 125 while retaining the automatic transmission?

No, it won't work.

Bill

[Cellar Yeti]

I'd be happier with a twist n' go automatic. Is it possible to buy a 50 and swap in a 125 while retaining the automatic transmission?

No, it won't work.

Bill

I have found information to the contrary. You can get a manual 50 or a 125 and swap the engine for a 50-125 auto clutch. If you get the auto 50cc you don't need to re-run the rear brake cable when you swap. The engine mounts are identical too. I'd like to see the auto clutch higher displacement engines stocked for those who don't want to clutch.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LIFAN-12 ... ccessories

[Greg]

This doesn't have an automatic transmission. It has a semi-automatic clutch. You still have to shift gears. Note the gear shift lever it comes with. If I understand the semi-automatic clutch correctly, the difference is you don't have to pull the clutch in by hand, but you do still have to switch gears with your foot. Another difference is the shift pattern is slightly different. With our stock transmission the shift pattern is 1 down, 3 up. These transmissions with the semi-automatic clutch are 4 up. Maybe someone more familiar with semi-automatic clutches can explain how they work, because I am not really sure what happens when you try to come to a stop and are in first gear. Does the clutch disengage?

As Peirspeed mentioned before, even the 50cc automatics are being discontinued, because they just don't sell in any part of the world. Automatics just aren't fun, and they don't make full use of the power of the engine. They have 2 speeds rather than the 4 that the manual transmissions have. So not only would there probably be even fewer people interested in 125cc automatics even if somehow they could be produced, they wouldn't be functional. 2 speeds wouldn't work on the 125 unless you wanted to top out at 30-35 mph like the 50cc does.

[Greg]

That engine you linked to also doesn't have electric start.

[Cellar Yeti]

This doesn't have an automatic transmission. It has a semi-automatic clutch. You still have to shift gears. Note the gear shift lever it comes with. If I understand the semi-automatic clutch correctly, the difference is you don't have to pull the clutch in by hand, but you do still have to switch gears with your foot. Another difference is the shift pattern is slightly different. With our stock transmission the shift pattern is 1 down, 3 up. These transmissions with the semi-automatic clutch are 4 up. Maybe someone more familiar with semi-automatic clutches can explain how they work, because I am not really sure what happens when you try to come to a stop and are in first gear. Does the clutch disengage?

As Peirspeed mentioned before, even the 50cc automatics are being discontinued, because they just don't sell in any part of the world. Automatics just aren't fun, and they don't make full use of the power of the engine. They have 2 speeds rather than the 4 that the manual transmissions have. So not only would there probably be even fewer people interested in 125cc automatics even if somehow they could be produced, they wouldn't be functional. 2 speeds wouldn't work on the 125 unless you wanted to top out at 30-35 mph like the 50cc does.

Right, that's why I said auto clutch and not automatic transmission. It's called a slipping clutch. And I said it'd be nice if they offered auto clutch engines optionally for the people who would like a Sachs, but don't want a fully manual. Thus increasing the market pool to people like me who are looking for a scooter-like twist n' go style bike. Again, like I said, I am not looking for an automatic transmission, but a semi auto transmission. Still has 4 gears, just simpler to use.

That engine you linked to also doesn't have electric start.

They are available with electric start I believe, just not the one I linked.

[Guest]

I would really, really strongly recommend that you find a friend to let you test ride a MadAss before making a final decision about the whole clutch thing.

I'm a motorcyclist and scooter owner with a long history of riding small-bore bikes, and I can tell you from personal experience that mastering a manual clutch on a small bike is WAY easier than doing it on a car. How can thousands of pre-teen dirtbikers, and all those hairy-ape Hell's Angel types be wrong?

Here are the pros and cons of the three options (full-auto, semi-auto and manual) on small bikes:

Ease of use:
- Fully automatic twist-and-go scooters feel carefree, in a way that's hard to explain.
- Manual clutches are fun in a way that's equally hard to explain. They also feel much
more "sporty"...
- Auto clutches (like on a Honda step-through) are NOT fun. You have to coordinate
throttle and shifter movement, and shifting feels slow and clunky.

Learning curve on take-off:
- Full auto transmissions have no learning curve.
- Semi-auto transmissions on small bikes can't be stalled on take-off, which is an
advantage over a manual clutch.
- Manual clutches on small bikes are tiny, and only take a 2-finger pull. Takeoff is
surprisingly simple- give it a little gas, let go of the lever, then give it more gas
as needed. Comparative clutzes like my wife only take about 15 minutes to
learn how. Small bikes don't have enough power to "get away from you", so
there's no fear factor.

Learning curve on shifting:
- Full auto transmissions have no learning curve beyond the horrible realization
that you have no control over engine rpm. Don't wan't to buzz down the street
like a giant, pissed-off wasp? Too bad. NOTE: full-auto's have no engine braking,
which introduces a new learning curve- it's very easy to over-ride the brakes.
- Semi-auto transmissions surge and clunk. It either bugs you or it doesn't, but
even after extensive familiarization, many riders save shifting into first gear
until they're stopped, because it's too difficult to get a smooth downshift.
- After a few minutes of use, shifting with a manual clutch is smooth as silk, and
requires no thought at all. You simply accelerate until things feel a little
strained, and then shift again. It's a completely unconscious process.

Performance:
- Full-auto CV's in small bikes are not like the computerized CV's in modern cars.
They're just a variable pulley, with shifting dependent on engine rpm. Built-in
gearing limitations make them bog down on hills and buzz along at crazy rpm
on the flat, pretty much regardless of throttle position.
- Full-auto CV's are heavy and inefficient. There's a definite performance cost
for twist-and-go operation. Also, ride quality is crap. Small wheels and a huge
amount of unsprung weight out back, make for a VERY bumpy ride.
- Manual-clutch chain drive is light and efficient. The MadAss will outperform
similar-sized twist-and-go scooters, especially on hilly terrain.
- Semi-auto transmissions offer nearly the same efficiency as a manual,
except for a little acceleration lag caused by the slow shifting.

Maintenance:
- CV's are clean. No oily fingers when changing the chain, and no can of chain
lube in the garage.
- CV's are NOT maintenance-free. Belts and rollers wear. CV's are slightly more
expensive to maintain over the long haul, compared to a well-maintained
chain drive.
- CV's are a pain in the neck to service. Half a dozen fasteners just to get the
cover off, weird tools required to hold the primary pulley while you
disassemble it to replace the belt...
- Modern chains are pre-lubed and sealed with o-rings, so they are only as
dirty as you want them to be. You can extend chain life by using spray-on
lube, at the expensive of a constantly grubby rear wheel. Or not.
- Chain replacement is no worse than belt replacement, and doesn't have to
be done as often. Technophobes can let their dealer do it.
- If you want the best of both worlds, get a bike with a covered chain drive,
like a Honda step-through, Sym Symba, etc. They're as clean as a belt, and
chain life is amazing. Reports of 20,000 miles on cheap chains are not
uncommon. However, the big chaincase looks WAY dorky...

[Cellar Yeti]

That's a good write up and makes some very valid points I hadn't considered. However, I am still wary of manual shifting. It seems awkward and un natural. Like I would have to divert attention while driving to shifting which would be dangerous. The whole process sounds complicated which I am not sure is true or not, it's just my perception that going through the motions would require effort. Also, I can't wrap my head around one brake being on right near your foot, and the other on the right handlebar, it seems just as awkward, especially when you would need to brake in an emergency, your natural reaction would be to use the most flexible and easily accessible appendage, I.E. right hand.

[Foundations]

Seeing as this is the first manual clutch motorcycle I've ever ridden I can say that learning how to shift was very easy. I did learn how to drive a manual automobile so maybe thats why it was very easy. I can say that it has been nice to be able to drop down a gear when hill climbing. I can only assume that an automatic gearbox would bother me the same way that automatic cars bother me with their flaky gear changing at inappropriate times.

[blubberboy]

I would really, really strongly recommend that you find a friend to let you test ride a MadAss before making a final decision about the whole clutch thing.

<snips heaps of really cool info in the post>...

My nomination for post of the week, month and year. Guest, you should join the forum!

Part of the attraction of the MadAss for me is the manual box, it means you are in control of the machine. Of course it also means you are crying out for a fifth gear and maybe 50cc's more some times, especially on the run down Footscray Rd or Dandenong Rd (sorry but Melbournians know what I mean).

[mike20748]

Totally agree with the "guests" post, you will get over your fear gear changing and braking within the first 10-15 min of riding and the whole braking issue that you are wary about will dissipate within your first few rides. It becomes almost second nature to do so, just remember to always pretend that no one sees you and give yourself room to brake until your more comfortable.

Peace.

[Foundations]

just remember to always pretend that no one sees you and give yourself room to brake until your more comfortable.

ESPECIALLY if you happen to be riding in the Seattle area.

[Cellar Yeti]

I am going to try it out at the dealership before I decided.

[mosquito]

I have a 70cc automatic and I think it's great. I know the shifting offers better control of your speeds and acceleration, but I really enjoy the twist and go. With the 70cc I can get up to 50mph easily and there's a nice growl and backfires when slowing down. My only complain would be when you are in a dead stop on an uphill, it takes a bit for the bike to get going, but once it's moving it keeps up with the others quite well.

[cobraBITES]

i dont know what you ended up getting, but;

some states consider anything >50cc or with a manual xmission a MC.

ia 88cc kit will go from 2.9 HP to 10 HP
if you buy a 50cc with an auto. you can always kit it out the topend to 88cc's or 102 with a crank, keeping the automatic 2-speed.

once you get comphy riding then drop in a 160 cc with correct stator and or rewire it.

lifanenginepartswholesale.com has a bunch of Auto Transmission and Semi Automatic 4 Speeds, "Manual" Foot-shift, No Hand Clutch needed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_amQXE3DBhw

[dave]

i have a 50 auto,,thats all we can get in canada,i tell you its fun,but yes lacks power,,look for a 50cc auto and get the 88cc kit if you want to stay auto,or get a 110cc motor,full automatic just make sure if it has electric start the starter is on the bottom,im not 100% but i dont think with starter on top it will fit